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The Problem with Rules
So, plenty of people are breaking the rules. Using pre-made content, not releasing sources, doing a team effort.
When LD started, originally, the rules were really loose – not set in stone at all. It was more about the feeling – if you feel like you’re cheating, you’re cheating, that sort of thing. Later, when things progressed, and LD grew bigger, the rules became more defined (and in some cases, unfortunately, slightly conflicting).
The more rules, the less likely it is for people to actually read them. As an example, here you can read the final ruleset of the TMDC contest I organized for about a decade. Lots of rules. Strict rules. Rules that define things exactly. Rules most people didn’t bother reading. Rules someone always complained about.
Which leads to this LD – and folks not releasing sources. The rule is there for several reasons. Primary reason is for people to check what you’ve done, maybe learn something. I don’t know how many people do, but that’s it anyway.
If you fear someone is going to steal the code you made in a rush in a weekend, you’re simply delusional. You’d be surprised how difficult it is to get people to use your GOOD code =)
Free code isn’t free. Just take any random third party library; you’ll find it takes time to figure out what it does, how to use it, and what the limitations are. And this is for code that’s designed to be used by third parties. Code, that’s not designed to be looked at ever again, written by you, in a weekend? Please.
So anyway, I’d propose we design a very small set of simple rules that are easy to understand, and then have a bunch of clarifying rules based on those. For instance:
- 48 hours, clearly defined start and end in a certain timezone
- Solo competition – everything must be done by you.
- All graphics and audio must be done from scratch. Fonts are ok, but only for text.
- All source code and content must be released, along with binaries.
- Pre-existing code is ok, as long as:
- it’s available for everyone
- it’s available well in advance (say, 2 weeks?)
- it doesn’t contain any gameplay code
Now, we could debate forever about just about any rule there:
- Is it fair that the 48 hours fit some timezones better than others?
- Is everything done by you if you record sounds by some other person (with or without them knowing)?
- Is the graphics done by you if you take photos?
- Why can’t we use font ‘A’ character as the spaceship? (seriously, what’s the harm?)
- If you record your synthesizer that you bought with big bucks, is the sound “from scratch”?
- <insert any other edge you might get by buying fancy toys to do content with>
- What, exactly, is gameplay code and what isn’t? Is menu code ok? Is my level-data-specific A* ok? Is state machine code ok?
- etc.
And if we go back to “if it feels like you’re cheating, you are”, well.. different folks’ threshold for feeling guilty about these things are different, and the bigger LD grows, the more varied it becomes.
Someone suggested LD should have different categories for different things, like team efforts etc. I’d say no. If you want to, set up another event – it’s not rocket science! And if you don’t like the rules, nobody is forcing you to enter.. or if they are, please do tell us about it!
For transparency, I’ll mention that I did not do an entry this time. No time, sorry.
I’ll comment myself:
> Is it fair that the 48 hours fit some timezones better than others?
Yes.
> Is everything done by you if you record sounds by some other person (with or without them knowing)?
This bit goes to the “if you feel you’re cheating” category.
> Is the graphics done by you if you take photos?
Yes. Assuming the photos are taken during the time. I think.
> Why can’t we use font ‘A’ character as the spaceship? (seriously, what’s the harm?)
I think fonts should be freely usable – if a character is a nice starting point for ship art, feel free. As for using “glyph fonts” (like windings), we’re down to “if you feel you’re cheating” category again.
> If you record your synthesizer that you bought with big bucks, is the sound “from scratch”?
Sound is tricky. I think it’s unfair some people know how to compose (and well, play) music, because I can’t.
> [insert any other edge you might get by buying fancy toys to do content with]
These are always tricky things, but I doubt, apart from the audio category, there’s anything you can buy that will help you in your 48-from-scratch competition overmuch. (texture synthesizer? dunno).
> What, exactly, is gameplay code and what isn’t? Is menu code ok? Is my level-data-specific A* ok? Is state machine code ok?
This bit goes to the “if you feel you’re cheating” category again.
> I think it’s unfair some people know how to compose (and well, play) music, because I can’t.
And it’s unfair that some people can draw and I can’t, and it’s unfair that some people have algorithm/coding madskillz and some other don’t. But:
1. it’s about learning, and you can take advantage of the compo to ask for advice, starting points, etc.
2. you can find your ways around it. If you’re no sound engineer, you can use sfxr, if you’re no signal processing doctor, you can use soft-synths (there are free *and* good ones). If you’re no composer, learn how to get away with simple loops and 3 chords. If you suck at drawing, do as I did before: make minimalistic vector drawings, or adopt a very distinctive style that will look nice, even though it’s not talentful.
Aw rats, forgot the smiley – that was a joke.
I second the vector art. Anyone can make something that looks good in Inkscape.
Actually, I think the rules of LD have become less strict with time (with the exception of the LDs organized by MechanicalCat which had very strict rules). Physics, game engines, all that used to be forbidden.
I think that’s good as it’s now possible to focus more on content and be more relaxed about the code.
Okay, maybe I used the wrong term: more clearly defined, maybe not more strict.
I think there should be rules set in place regarding what tools you may use.
Now, I am a coder at heart. I’ve never been able to stomach up to using an engine like game maker or unity because I don’t get the same control. Having started programming about seven years ago, I’m fortunate that I can code quickly and efficiently. I have absolutely no problem competing with somebody else’s entry made with an engine. If somebody is unskilled at a bare-bones language, then there’s nothing stopping them from using another. Very simple.
The limitations should be for modellers, audio, and graphics. For example, the only tools I use are Modplug Tracker (Though I do utilize premade instruments) GIMP and sfxr. For modelling, which hasn’t come up in LD yet, I use Google Sketchup, 3DS Max 6, and Maplet. What would I say?
- Graphics programs allowed (Would be expanded to include more I don’t know about)
Adobe Photoshop
Corel Paintship
GIMP
MS Paint
Paint.net
- Voxel modelling programs allowed
Paint3D
- 3D modellers allowed:
Blender
Wings3D
Sketchup
3DS
Maplet
- Sound programs allowed:
[I'm not expert with audio programs. On my computer is only audicity, modplug tracker, sfxr, and a few audio extension conerters.]
I wouldn’t limit the tools people may use like that..
Let me put it this way. Show me a good entry made with a game maker of some sort =)
lots to do on cat planet!
haha cat plannet. chuchino’s beasty; funkatronic
*coughatollerycough*
What a terrible idea!
It’s going to be extremely difficult to make and maintain such a list. With every LD, you would have tons of people asking if tool X or Y is allowed. And who is going to decide? That person probably won’t know enough to make an informed decision (based on what criteria?) about every possible software out there.
The only thing that would make sense from the level playfield perspective would be to ban anything that costs money and allow only open-source and freeware tools. But then it’s unfair to people who have bought good software with their hard earned money and have to learn to use a possibly inferior free alternative specially for the LD.
But then you what about special hardware? If I can’t use a commercial music package then why would a hardware synthesizer be allowed. So you’d pretty much have to have an allowed hardware list too.
There’s no such thing as a “level playfield” =)
Not just an “allowed” hardware list. That’s not equal. We need a system whereby every participant receives stock hardware (same PC, music keyboard, graphics tablet, etc.). Then, instead of voting, we just have PoV declare that everyone is tied for second place, just behind himself. Some occasional violation of civil rights would be nice, too.
lol, that comment made my day
I don’t think tools are the problem. Good tools cannot replace talent or effort.
Now there is an ambiguity about how much tools do. If you have a tool (that you paid super lots of money) that can generate procedurally full scenes, models, textures and animation, then yeah it’s probably not fair.
If you wrote it during the compo, seems ok.
Then again, there’s sfxr, which is widely accepted, which basically does that for small sounds. Is it ok for small sounds, but not for long songs? There are softs and website that generate random music. Are these ok? Is *choosing* the random music you like enough to consider it original and made by you?
This I don’t know.
Well the rule has always been that procedurally generated content is OK. In my entry I used Vue 8 Infinite to generate the skybox. I think it’s pretty and required very little effort/skills on my part.
But anybody can use a procedurally generated skybox. When I saw bluscrn use one in LD #3, I thought it was really cool and I did the same for my LD #5 game. I think that’s exactly the kind of trick that we can learn in a LD.
Maybe everyone should just treat it the way I do.
If you want to cheat, go ahead and do it. Still participate in the event, just be up-front about it, and don’t submit until a few days later so nobody mistakenly votes for you. Nobody cares if you cheat and lose, after all.
Yep, that’s all good in my opinion. Nothing stops you from hanging around on the IRC channel and work on your completely unrelated web project even.. =)
Agreed. That’s a perfectly valid way to do it. I considered it at some point before engines were allowed when I just didn’t feel like coding everything from scratch one more time. But it would kind of feel like you’re not really participating.
Sounds good. Maybe you could even use the submission system, but with a checkbox “does not enter the contest”, and you could state your reasons (ripped off half the engine of my previous game, took many assets from free banks, does not want to include source, etc)
It is certainly true that there most probably are no LDers who’d consciously cheat and then claim to not have done so. I certainly agree that some people wont read the rules (I myself didn’t realize sources are required), but this far there has usually been a lot of “can I do this” -questions in the IRC channel and the blog, so I feel most users definitely care about this problem, and want to avoid breaking the rules.
We have to have fun during LD, don’t mind other people breaking the rule. Make shure you don’t break them! And after the deadline, you are a judge so feel free to judge other game with the compo rules.
The problem with rules is that there’s no point having them if people can choose to not follow them without any consequences at all. Otherwise they’re not rules, but guidelines.
Before we resort to disqualifying people though (i really like the honor system and ideally would prefer if we could just stick to that), maybe an alternative could be to make the rules more obvious. Have a checklist at the submission page, and require ticking all the boxes before allowing the submission (or still allow submissions that don’t follow everything, but exclude them from voting). For example:
[ ] This is a solo effort. Except for basecode and libraries, I did all the code, graphics and sound myself.
[ ] I did everything during the 48 hours of the compo.
[ ] All basecode and libraries were publicly available before the compo started.
[ ] I did not use any preexisting gameplay code.
[ ] Here’s a link to my source code: ______
Then people would at least have to actively lie to submit an entry that breaks the rules.
(i didn’t enter this time.)
I like this idea. And it would be easy to implement as part of the web re-design.
I like this idea too.
Oh, I had that idea last night. It’sa good! It does not replace a public notice of the rules, but people will certainly know the rules at submission time with this. You could replace the public notice of rules with a signup page. Anyone who wants to participate would have to sign up (this could be done at any point before or during the 48 hours). The sign up page would have similar checkboxes for the big rules.
I cast my vote in favour of this option.
The only rules I strongly associate with LD(been in and out of it since LD #4) are:
-Finish in 48 hours.
-Work alone.
-Create original assets.
Saying “boo hoo, some people are using/can afford/know how to use better tools than I, shut ‘em down” is just counterproductive. If someone’s hoarding an “Ultimate Game Creator” tool to themselves, it would be nice to have them release it, but there are already plenty of incentives to do so outside of LD and allowing their participation doesn’t harm the spirit of the event, which as you may recall is about the personal vision and achievement, not triumph over lesser developers.
I for one would be more inspired than anything else if somebody showed up with an “ultimate tool” and demonstrated its incredible power – inspired to make something that beats the shit out of it.
Word. If there isn’t already, there should be a categorical list of game development topics (language, IDE, library platforms (SDL, XNA, etc), sound, music, graphics, fonts, networking, etc) and lists of free/open source software which fill each topic. It should be somewhere easy to find.
Currently using the “super game creation tool” would probably create several very similat, technically advanced games. I doubt there’s any tool out there that’d make fancy stuff “too easily”, if you know what I mean.
And even having a “super game creation tool” requires you to know how to use it well. We’ve had some “engine games” which have totally sucked.
As I stated in another comment, having a “perfect game creation tool”, where the result is EXACTLY what you had in mind for your game (but not exactly as you want it… you might think that certain gameplay element may be fun but it may turn out to be repetitive, annoying or just not plain fun at all) would greatly increase the number of creative titles.
Sure, as Hempuli said, some people are going to use it for their cookie-cuter mind and make another CoD4, but those people are less than 5% of those who want to be Game Designers…
Real game designers do not want to do anything that has already been done, they don’t want to do “fancy” stuff, they want to do “FUN” stuff, innovation, creativity, etc…
Or maybe I’m completely oblivious to the real world…
I don’t really think of this so much as a competition in terms of winners and losers, so having strict rules doesn’t improve things. If you manage a game and you’re happy with it, you’ve won. Congratulations! If someone else won who did things an easier way, just be proud that you managed doing it the hard way.
I think I’ve seen one or two games in previous LDs where the person has clearly ignored the rules completely, but it didn’t affect how happy I was with my own result.
(Hmmm, my comments keep disappearing…)
>AtkinsSJ says:
>I don’t really think of this so much as a competition in terms of winners and losers, so having strict rules doesn’t >improve things. If you manage a game and you’re happy with it, you’ve won. Congratulations! If someone else won >who did things an easier way, just be proud that you managed doing it the hard way.
Totally agree, harder is the way bigger is the glory 8)
I agree. You get out of LD what you put into it. Even if it weren’t a competition and were just a way for a group of game makers to amuse and learn from each other, I’d still be participating.
Reading this just now made me realize I (quite accidentally) broke the all original content rules. I did use an image from NASA in my game. Yeargh
Honestly I was not even thinking when I used it, I was just in the middle of the “creative flow” and I’ve used public domain images from NASA before in various projects so I just naturally thought of it. Something cool about actual pictures of the cosmos. Didn’t occur to me until this discussion of the rules that I had broken one of them…
However on the other hand I did make a font from scratch (I knew I didn’t have to, I just enjoy doing this as I think it lends a lot of originality to a game to have a custom designed font…)
The other thing I did which I don’t think should be against the rules is I used a Creative Commons Licenced for Commercial Use image from flickr for color-swatching. This is of an island in iran and I used it to set up my color scheme. It’s in the source files for my game.
To be honest, I don’t feel super strongly about keeping the rules super stringent, but that’s just me… To me the most important rule is the 48 hours rule, but even there I didn’t finish my game until about 15 minutes after the deadline (I started, including seeing the them, an hour late though, and I put this on my entry page…)
Honestly, I think part of what is happening is the competition is expanding and we’re getting a broader range of people entering, who have different skill sets and different ideas about how to go about making a game. We had a similar discussion the last couple rounds about tools like game maker, but those tools seemed to be accepted.
Anyhow, just my $0.02!
Hey, at least people aren’t complaining about the site not working anymore.
Progress!
Game engine is a too fuzzy concept.
Ludum dare victim of its success. Will it survive ?
Couldn’t agree less!
If it were up to me, I’d not only scrap every one of the rules, I’d do away with the voting afterwards too. And I wouldn’t call it a “Competition” either.
Also you wouldn’t call it “Ludum Dare”?
(“Mini-LD”, perhaps?)
Anyways, it’s not competition as in “fierce rivalry”, it’s competition as in “friendly challenge w/mutual encouragement”. Winning isn’t the important bit, but the fact that everyone else is working within the same rules and restrictions as yourself is part of the fun. See what you can do within the limits, see what everyone else comes up with. It’s a community event.
We do that every month over at Glorious Trainwrecks!
Yeah, and that’s great, except you guys have a strict 2-hour limit and that pretty much requires people to use a game maker of some sort. Which leaves me unable to participate, since none of them work in linux =(
Make your own
I’m with Terry to be honest, an all creative jam would be super cool, however that isnt what LD is, I quite like that its only solo folk and the start and end times are strict.
but yeah, if you want something else you can go someplace else, (tell me when you get there so I can join you there when I’m not hanging out here)
as it is I think whilst rules shouldnt be important, there is voting, and when I come across entries that break the rules, I have a dilemma when it comes to voting, as its no longer a fair competition. even if most of us are here just for the fun, plenty of people want to see how they measure and thats ok too, but if the system doesent keep out rule breakers it isnt fair.
that said I’m fine with rule breaking, just dont submit the game for voting, or have some aspect of the voting system altered to allow for it. I want to see new games, even if they dont comply with what “the (LD) man” has to say.
goodness I swear I had a simple point to make, maybe I’d better have a summary:
- rules are fine, so long as they arent enforced
- a no rules, no holds barred event would be fun too, but it wouldnt be LD
- I’m incapable of leaving a short comment on a blog post like this
and to correct my summary:
- rules are fine, so long as they ARE enforced
god I’m stupid >__<
This is pretty much my position on this too actually (with the corrected summary
)
Contributing to the drama despite my better judgment:
I like to think that we’re too busy making and enjoying each other’s games to worry about whether the rules are getting followed/enforced.
I do appreciate that the rules give LD a bit of structure, but so far no one has broken the rules in a way that hurts my LD experience.
I think so too, the worst rule breaking has effected me so far was being a little unsure if I should rate an entry and how. hardly worth worrying about really.
I think it’s important to define a good set of rules if you are going to enforce them. When coupled with a rating system, you, the judge, have to know how to correctly rate a game that breaks the rules: are the disqualified? Do you dock them a couple points in the field they broke the rule in? In this last compo, the rules were evidently quite incomplete: by no means would teams be disqualified given the text of the rules. However, I’ve had people mark my game with all N/As because I had help. With the proposal of the Jam, it seems like a lot of this would be answered–but it still needs a lot of clarification and a definite list of rules for the actual compo.
Hehe,…actually I know, noone will read this anymore as this post is miles below the current post. Nevertheless I want to mention that even the overall winner has violated the rule of providing the sourcecode….
I would have thought somebody would verify that for the top entries before publishing the results. >___<
Well, this sucks!
Especially as we got this very very small discussions about the rule violations….
! I already commented one of his last posts that next time he can participate in that “jams” 
*bump* Is something being done to resolve the situation?